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feeling, expression, and validation
i've seen far too many times people trying to justify a character (or a person's) need or absolute lack of need for external validation, or other people's opinions of them as purely an Fe thing. while i can understand where it's coming from, this character trait is not mutually exclusive from Fi characters, and is rarely indicative of pointing to either consistently either way.
additionally, i would like to dispel the myth that someone expressing their feelings is also not indicative of what F they have, especially if it's an aux or inferior function. an tert/inferior Fe will be less likely to share their personal and emotive feelings as a dominant/aux Fi, as well as the other way around, and even accounting for loops there are still a variety of results for various reasons. it's not indicative, and when people use these things as proof i just want to yell at my computer screen.
anyway.
with regards to all this: Feeling is not indicated by self-expression. it is also not indicated by if someone needs external validation. i've actually seen it that those with lower Fe and Fi (TPs and TJs, basically) tend to have unhealthier ways of expressing and confronting their internal need for validation and/or how people will think of them or receive them. meanwhile, while FPs and FJs may have similar struggles, they are more prone to making their needs obvious.
take, for example, moana and maui. moana, an FJ, talks constantly about how she's doing things for the village, for the ocean - it's her calling from someone else, a driving force. she's motivated by what others need and want; her identity (and assumed self-worth) is based on that. she has an expressive relationship with it, however, and actively pursues it; but when her parents manage to persuade her otherwise, she momentarily is happy with the idea of pursuing the interests of the village rather than the ocean. it's only when the livelihood of her village is compromised when what the ocean tells her becomes her path of life again. she easily fluctuates, but needs this force.
maui, on the other hand, does like validation, yes. when he's telling about the stories of the tattoos, he talks about how a lot of the things he did were for the good of the people, and they would praise him. however - and aside from other evidence i think that makes him an obvious Fi user, with being happily alone on an island for so long and not leaping at the chance to even forge a dialogue with moana but straight up going to steal her boat, doing things on his own and priding himself in it, but i digress -
- his validation goes a lot into his energies of his view of himself and feelings of self-worth. while it's not to say that Fe users (tert/inferior Fe users especially - i can relate) don't have a sense of self, their search for validation isn't fueled by that. but with TJs such as maui, or lassiter from psych, or ben from lost, or hermione from harry potter - there is still a strong sense of the self, and self-image. TJ users need the validation especially when in their minds it can feel like they lose themselves - what they understand of their identity, things they believe in and how they naturally react - along the way, and they need external reinforcements to find or further validate who they are and how they feel about themselves. like maui, this value of self-reflection and understanding is their emotive drive, moral compass, and/or just personal interests and achievements that are unadulterated and fester at the core. they need other people for validation so it feels like what they're doing is right, (unhealthily) to impose their values/superiority on others, to feel like they are useful and worth something - so that they know who they are and where they're coming from. when what feels so emotionally subjective and unreliable (especially for ExTJ users) in themselves has a use in the world, and is accepted or at least gets an outcome from others in the outside world, their Fi can become fulfilled.
on the other hand, Fe is different from this. it is equally complex and can still fuel elements of self-worth, but the difference that lies between them is the energy and the focus.
where the Fi user is hyper-conscious of the feelings that are happening inside of them, the Fe user is hyper-conscious of the feelings outside. this still may be confusing and redundant as with one's understanding of themselves, one can argue that both coexist.
but -
tertiary/inferior Fe users feel slightly more tumultuous when it comes to interacting with others. take, for example, luna lovegood from harry potter, an intp. though luna's individuality and uniqueness is often mistaken as an Fi trait - which i won't get into now - she has a clear inferior Fe where though she seeks and easily accepts love and validation from others (as noted in books 6 and 7, where she is fascinated at the concept of having friends), she never confidently pursues it and her characterization suggests that that is because she doesn't quite understand how.
meanwhile harry (an isfp) who for the large part was surrounded most of his early life by people who hated him, he doesn't have the sort of lack of knowledge or uncaring that luna has, despite his anxieties. even when draco malfoy was making conversation with him at madam malkin's, harry's response of not caring for (and then later rejecting draco's offer at) friendship doesn't seem to come from a place of intentionally wanting to put a certain impression on draco, but rather what he feels is right or wants to do. plunk a TP user there and they'll more likely try to make an impression or deliberately and knowingly disregard impressional results - harry, meanwhile, operates on "this is what i feel is right to do, even if it's at the expense of not having this person like me." an Fi user can, of course, also be kind or complacent, but that's because they feel like that's what they need to do because they don't want to make a certain impression on the other. and for the Fi user, the sentence would be written like this: they don't (or do) want to make an impression on the other person. for an Fe user, it would be more: they don't (or do) want to make an impression on the other person. notice how for the Fe user the emphasis is on the action, not on the person receiving the action. while that is their target, their energies are focused on the actions towards the person, while the Fi user (even xxtjs and exfps) are just what they anticipate or feeling in the moment.
back on the topic of ixtps: while they can come in a variety of colors - complete disregarding others' feelings and also disregarding their needing validation from others because of their lack of understanding paired with higher interest in pursuing personal investments (luna, kenma from haikyuu, ford from gravity falls), or flat out rejecting the concept of needing other people's validation and this having absolutely 0 effect on their life and consequent feelings about it (rey from star wars, locke from lost),
- the oft used narrative for ixtps' and their relationship with external validation comes with a combination of wanting to pursue personal interests, but either for the sake of or to gain the attention of people, and also with a very struggling to do so while being likable, kind, or appealing. yet along the way they managed to be deeply invested in personal relationships that they strongly value, and use a sense of morals based on the good/bad impact it can have on others. this is why ixtps can often be written or labeled as self-seeking, though if they exercise their Fe enough, can instead form a very strong sense of justice and seek the best methods and results for Everyone. this also gives them intensely strong feelings about personal relationships that while they may not be able to express or understand, hold a lot of internal value to them. it tends to look or feel very black and white on the outside, and can often also feel as such for the ixtp on the inside. (mark from tsn (fight me), maki from love live, peridot from steven universe, peter parker, peter pettigrew, arakita from yowapeda, toph from atla, kate and sawyer from lost, gladion from pokemon sun/moon... i could go on.)
the only reason i want to highlight this so explicitly with ixtps is because a) i am an inferior Fe user, and b) i don't think that ixtps' inferior Fe is discussed as much as it should be, since people place so much emphasis on the dominant Ti and analyst/inventive/socially reluctant side of ixtps a lot. ixtps actually need a lot of validation even if they do have a tumultuous relationship with it - not in the same way that extjs need it for their self-worth (which is as valid as any other mbti type), but because when you naturally bring your personal objective outlook on the world, you need sympathetic energy from or for other people to balance that out. in the same way that TJs often want to feel like useful people, TPs want to feel like there is a world outside their instinctive reaction to sort things in understandable, logical systems.
of course, with extps it's a slightly different story, in that while their pursuits are objective and based on self-interests (and generally active), they tend to do their best to deliberately consider others, most of the time because they aren't quite sure if people are appreciating them or understanding them as much as they want them to. when the extp uses their Fe, it's intentional, once again appealing to others because they're appealing to others. the extps' need for validation works much like the ixtps', in that they're not sure if the things that they like and understand - things that are very internalized to them - can be easily accepted or understood by others. so they need others to like or react or validate these things - and they express this freely. not the personal feelings and needs of validation exactly - rarely, actually - but whereas where the extj and ixtp may try to look for it and read it between the lines, the extp (and ixtj) tends to go forth and do, to get immediate reactions. it may not be obvious and they may act like they don't care, as Thinkers are prone to do - but where xtjs tend to secretly want validation out of self-understanding and "true"* validation, xtps tell themselves/act like they don't want validation at all but secretly know that they do.
* "true" not meaning inferior to the xtps' validation, but rather that what they feel/their morals/etc. don't feel like "enough" so they need exterior results for internal reinforcement
(of course, the ixtj need for validation is still different from the extp here because it still fuels the self-worth thing that i discussed with extjs - but i digress.)
the extp needs others to react the same way the ixtp does - but while an ixtp may wait for it to happen or try to make it occur without taking direct action, the extp is prone to be more direct with this sort of thing. neither are inherently good or bad, of course, since this all depends on the user themselves and the methods with which they express their Feeling function. both extps and ixtps may feel equally inept - or even adept! - at handling and interacting with people, seeking and drawing out the validation they tend to need, but unlike xtjs, this validation does not add more fuel and understanding to the inside. rather, for xtps, it's more seeking something complementary and wanting the validation from the outside to click into place with the reasoning and interests on the outside, like a well-fastened buckle. i also have more theories on extps' selectivity and interesting "social circle"/"family"-loyalty mindset (a la slytherin) as a result of their tertiary Fe but that's another topic for another time
to put it simply after this incredibly long-winded post - Fi users need and seek validation to put inside themselves. the energy, the understanding, the love and comfort. everything on the inside is so feeling-based and subjective and has internal feelings of right and wrong and sometimes are so inside that they feel senseless, disjointed, or - hey, invalidated - that when they get validation from others, that's sort of like when the engine's on and the gas tank is full and the tires are turning that it feels like the car is running and it should - but then someone shouts, "hey your car's running!" (or "hey your car's not running!) that you feel more sure. or you don't care, but you still hear it, even if you may or may not want to
Fe users need and seek validation because... they need to. what else is there otherwise? validation is complementary to how a person can live. obviously this still can result in flat-out rejection of this need or desire, turning off concern or interest in interacting with (or appealing to) people completely. everything on the inside is understanding, reason, and what they see as sense based that they either need to be interested in the outside, or not interested at all. it's like when the engine's on and the gas tank is full and the tires are turning and you're pretty sure the car is running - and you just go on driving with the windows up and not listening or caring to what others might shout at you ("hey your car's running!" "hey your car's not running!) or you have the windows wide open because despite all this stuff that's going on on the inside, you need/want to hear what people shout at you.
this was a weird analogy for me to come up with but i think it summarizes this pretty well P:
additionally, i would like to dispel the myth that someone expressing their feelings is also not indicative of what F they have, especially if it's an aux or inferior function. an tert/inferior Fe will be less likely to share their personal and emotive feelings as a dominant/aux Fi, as well as the other way around, and even accounting for loops there are still a variety of results for various reasons. it's not indicative, and when people use these things as proof i just want to yell at my computer screen.
anyway.
with regards to all this: Feeling is not indicated by self-expression. it is also not indicated by if someone needs external validation. i've actually seen it that those with lower Fe and Fi (TPs and TJs, basically) tend to have unhealthier ways of expressing and confronting their internal need for validation and/or how people will think of them or receive them. meanwhile, while FPs and FJs may have similar struggles, they are more prone to making their needs obvious.
take, for example, moana and maui. moana, an FJ, talks constantly about how she's doing things for the village, for the ocean - it's her calling from someone else, a driving force. she's motivated by what others need and want; her identity (and assumed self-worth) is based on that. she has an expressive relationship with it, however, and actively pursues it; but when her parents manage to persuade her otherwise, she momentarily is happy with the idea of pursuing the interests of the village rather than the ocean. it's only when the livelihood of her village is compromised when what the ocean tells her becomes her path of life again. she easily fluctuates, but needs this force.
maui, on the other hand, does like validation, yes. when he's telling about the stories of the tattoos, he talks about how a lot of the things he did were for the good of the people, and they would praise him. however - and aside from other evidence i think that makes him an obvious Fi user, with being happily alone on an island for so long and not leaping at the chance to even forge a dialogue with moana but straight up going to steal her boat, doing things on his own and priding himself in it, but i digress -
- his validation goes a lot into his energies of his view of himself and feelings of self-worth. while it's not to say that Fe users (tert/inferior Fe users especially - i can relate) don't have a sense of self, their search for validation isn't fueled by that. but with TJs such as maui, or lassiter from psych, or ben from lost, or hermione from harry potter - there is still a strong sense of the self, and self-image. TJ users need the validation especially when in their minds it can feel like they lose themselves - what they understand of their identity, things they believe in and how they naturally react - along the way, and they need external reinforcements to find or further validate who they are and how they feel about themselves. like maui, this value of self-reflection and understanding is their emotive drive, moral compass, and/or just personal interests and achievements that are unadulterated and fester at the core. they need other people for validation so it feels like what they're doing is right, (unhealthily) to impose their values/superiority on others, to feel like they are useful and worth something - so that they know who they are and where they're coming from. when what feels so emotionally subjective and unreliable (especially for ExTJ users) in themselves has a use in the world, and is accepted or at least gets an outcome from others in the outside world, their Fi can become fulfilled.
on the other hand, Fe is different from this. it is equally complex and can still fuel elements of self-worth, but the difference that lies between them is the energy and the focus.
where the Fi user is hyper-conscious of the feelings that are happening inside of them, the Fe user is hyper-conscious of the feelings outside. this still may be confusing and redundant as with one's understanding of themselves, one can argue that both coexist.
but -
tertiary/inferior Fe users feel slightly more tumultuous when it comes to interacting with others. take, for example, luna lovegood from harry potter, an intp. though luna's individuality and uniqueness is often mistaken as an Fi trait - which i won't get into now - she has a clear inferior Fe where though she seeks and easily accepts love and validation from others (as noted in books 6 and 7, where she is fascinated at the concept of having friends), she never confidently pursues it and her characterization suggests that that is because she doesn't quite understand how.
meanwhile harry (an isfp) who for the large part was surrounded most of his early life by people who hated him, he doesn't have the sort of lack of knowledge or uncaring that luna has, despite his anxieties. even when draco malfoy was making conversation with him at madam malkin's, harry's response of not caring for (and then later rejecting draco's offer at) friendship doesn't seem to come from a place of intentionally wanting to put a certain impression on draco, but rather what he feels is right or wants to do. plunk a TP user there and they'll more likely try to make an impression or deliberately and knowingly disregard impressional results - harry, meanwhile, operates on "this is what i feel is right to do, even if it's at the expense of not having this person like me." an Fi user can, of course, also be kind or complacent, but that's because they feel like that's what they need to do because they don't want to make a certain impression on the other. and for the Fi user, the sentence would be written like this: they don't (or do) want to make an impression on the other person. for an Fe user, it would be more: they don't (or do) want to make an impression on the other person. notice how for the Fe user the emphasis is on the action, not on the person receiving the action. while that is their target, their energies are focused on the actions towards the person, while the Fi user (even xxtjs and exfps) are just what they anticipate or feeling in the moment.
back on the topic of ixtps: while they can come in a variety of colors - complete disregarding others' feelings and also disregarding their needing validation from others because of their lack of understanding paired with higher interest in pursuing personal investments (luna, kenma from haikyuu, ford from gravity falls), or flat out rejecting the concept of needing other people's validation and this having absolutely 0 effect on their life and consequent feelings about it (rey from star wars, locke from lost),
- the oft used narrative for ixtps' and their relationship with external validation comes with a combination of wanting to pursue personal interests, but either for the sake of or to gain the attention of people, and also with a very struggling to do so while being likable, kind, or appealing. yet along the way they managed to be deeply invested in personal relationships that they strongly value, and use a sense of morals based on the good/bad impact it can have on others. this is why ixtps can often be written or labeled as self-seeking, though if they exercise their Fe enough, can instead form a very strong sense of justice and seek the best methods and results for Everyone. this also gives them intensely strong feelings about personal relationships that while they may not be able to express or understand, hold a lot of internal value to them. it tends to look or feel very black and white on the outside, and can often also feel as such for the ixtp on the inside. (mark from tsn (fight me), maki from love live, peridot from steven universe, peter parker, peter pettigrew, arakita from yowapeda, toph from atla, kate and sawyer from lost, gladion from pokemon sun/moon... i could go on.)
the only reason i want to highlight this so explicitly with ixtps is because a) i am an inferior Fe user, and b) i don't think that ixtps' inferior Fe is discussed as much as it should be, since people place so much emphasis on the dominant Ti and analyst/inventive/socially reluctant side of ixtps a lot. ixtps actually need a lot of validation even if they do have a tumultuous relationship with it - not in the same way that extjs need it for their self-worth (which is as valid as any other mbti type), but because when you naturally bring your personal objective outlook on the world, you need sympathetic energy from or for other people to balance that out. in the same way that TJs often want to feel like useful people, TPs want to feel like there is a world outside their instinctive reaction to sort things in understandable, logical systems.
of course, with extps it's a slightly different story, in that while their pursuits are objective and based on self-interests (and generally active), they tend to do their best to deliberately consider others, most of the time because they aren't quite sure if people are appreciating them or understanding them as much as they want them to. when the extp uses their Fe, it's intentional, once again appealing to others because they're appealing to others. the extps' need for validation works much like the ixtps', in that they're not sure if the things that they like and understand - things that are very internalized to them - can be easily accepted or understood by others. so they need others to like or react or validate these things - and they express this freely. not the personal feelings and needs of validation exactly - rarely, actually - but whereas where the extj and ixtp may try to look for it and read it between the lines, the extp (and ixtj) tends to go forth and do, to get immediate reactions. it may not be obvious and they may act like they don't care, as Thinkers are prone to do - but where xtjs tend to secretly want validation out of self-understanding and "true"* validation, xtps tell themselves/act like they don't want validation at all but secretly know that they do.
* "true" not meaning inferior to the xtps' validation, but rather that what they feel/their morals/etc. don't feel like "enough" so they need exterior results for internal reinforcement
(of course, the ixtj need for validation is still different from the extp here because it still fuels the self-worth thing that i discussed with extjs - but i digress.)
the extp needs others to react the same way the ixtp does - but while an ixtp may wait for it to happen or try to make it occur without taking direct action, the extp is prone to be more direct with this sort of thing. neither are inherently good or bad, of course, since this all depends on the user themselves and the methods with which they express their Feeling function. both extps and ixtps may feel equally inept - or even adept! - at handling and interacting with people, seeking and drawing out the validation they tend to need, but unlike xtjs, this validation does not add more fuel and understanding to the inside. rather, for xtps, it's more seeking something complementary and wanting the validation from the outside to click into place with the reasoning and interests on the outside, like a well-fastened buckle. i also have more theories on extps' selectivity and interesting "social circle"/"family"-loyalty mindset (a la slytherin) as a result of their tertiary Fe but that's another topic for another time
to put it simply after this incredibly long-winded post - Fi users need and seek validation to put inside themselves. the energy, the understanding, the love and comfort. everything on the inside is so feeling-based and subjective and has internal feelings of right and wrong and sometimes are so inside that they feel senseless, disjointed, or - hey, invalidated - that when they get validation from others, that's sort of like when the engine's on and the gas tank is full and the tires are turning that it feels like the car is running and it should - but then someone shouts, "hey your car's running!" (or "hey your car's not running!) that you feel more sure. or you don't care, but you still hear it, even if you may or may not want to
Fe users need and seek validation because... they need to. what else is there otherwise? validation is complementary to how a person can live. obviously this still can result in flat-out rejection of this need or desire, turning off concern or interest in interacting with (or appealing to) people completely. everything on the inside is understanding, reason, and what they see as sense based that they either need to be interested in the outside, or not interested at all. it's like when the engine's on and the gas tank is full and the tires are turning and you're pretty sure the car is running - and you just go on driving with the windows up and not listening or caring to what others might shout at you ("hey your car's running!" "hey your car's not running!) or you have the windows wide open because despite all this stuff that's going on on the inside, you need/want to hear what people shout at you.
this was a weird analogy for me to come up with but i think it summarizes this pretty well P: